{% extends "_layout.html" %} {% block title %}I2P Development Meeting 213{% endblock %} {% block content %}
The next meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, January 8 @ 20:00 UTC (8:00PM)
{% filter escape %} 20:08:58meeting start while I was disconnected? 20:09:17 which meeting? 20:09:38 * KillYourTV points to the topic 20:10:09 Dev mtg here 8:00 PM (20:00) UTC Tues. Dec. 18^^ topic 20:11:38 maybe they've stopped... 20:12:12 Just start whenever? 20:18:08 usually dg runs the meetings 20:18:27 I think lillith took over when he had to leave one time 20:18:50 He didn't show up last week, that's why. 20:18:53 Is there a link to the general agenda? 20:18:53 (And the week before he was busy) 20:21:29 well, there is usually an agenda... 20:22:25 There's a link to the agenda he had been using for the previous few meetings, but I can't pull zzz.i2p at the moment... 20:22:28 on trac 20:22:28 thats the update weather 20:22:28 hell a lot of updates/traffic currently 20:22:28 http://trac.i2p2.i2p/wiki/meeting 20:22:28 o/ topiltzin 20:22:28 far faster than any update before 20:22:28 RN, can you access that? 20:22:28 what happened? one of the servers from this netword dropped down? 20:22:31 I've got a few planned topics anyway, if you can't. 20:22:31 agenda hasn't been updated since the dec 4th meeting it seems 20:22:31 \o str4d 20:22:31 Benedikt: net split, does happen a lot due to flaky i2p tunnels 20:22:31 oh, thx 20:22:34 Okay, I'm just going to propose a pseudo-random agenda. 20:22:45 Shoot 20:23:07 (0) Say Hi. 20:23:07 Hi! 20:23:15 Eyyy 20:23:31 what up 20:25:46 Any other takers? ^_^ 20:25:52 Alright, moving on: 20:25:52 (1) Network Health / Update Status 20:26:31 Network health seems (to me) to have been pretty bad the last few days/week or so. Do we know if this was an actual attack? 20:26:46 Or just continued degradation due to the bugs? 20:27:58 I guess we won't know for sure until more people actually update to 0.9.4 20:28:29 str4d, the trac link? yes 20:30:43 eche|on was reporting some weird behavior, but we would not know for sure even after people upgrade to 0.9.4 20:34:04 psi seemed to think that some of it was related to the Russian guides recommending that users force floodfill to find more nodes. 20:34:07 With regard to updates: 20:34:15 hell a lot of updates/traffic currently 20:34:18 far faster than any update before 20:34:29 Anything else to add to this summary of update progress eche|on? 20:36:17 780 full updates pushed till yet by my nodes 20:37:38 LaughingBuddha said that torrent updates worked for him. Anyone know how large the swarm is? 20:37:54 (Only dev routers I know, but would be interesting to know) 20:38:13 Just around 10 20:38:59 the torrent is very low usage for me 20:39:06 or, let's put it like this: I see 10 peers 20:39:17 I see 6 for su2 and 4 for sud 20:40:01 since only a very small percentage of dev build users were offered the torrent update, I'm not surprised by there being so few transfers thus far. 20:40:16 str4d: 6-7 peers , su2 20:40:30 KillYourTV, no, all dev build users are offered torrent. 20:41:09 If version ends in -0 and you pick a number from 0 to 99 that isn't 0, you don't get torrents. 20:41:12 (IIRC) 20:41:15 oh...i misunderstood then. 20:41:23 http://tracker2.postman.i2p/details.php?dllist=1&filelist=1&info_hash=%09k%a6%29%14%7b%15%f6%f89%d7%1b%1c%d9T%fe%60c%ec%7c 20:41:23 Torrent #19559: i2pupdate-0.9.4.su2, Size: 3.06 MB, Downloads: 6, Added: 2012-12-17 17:52:22, S/L: 10/1 20:42:01 It's enough to show that the update mechanism is working though (and we don't need to worry much about scalability, because that's already been well-tested for torrents ^_^) 20:43:11 I missed the torrent option 20:43:37 was upgrading from 0.9.3-13 20:43:48 Okay, not much more to say here for now - we can appraise the effects of the update at the next meeting. 20:43:48 (2) Website Revamp 20:43:48 http://vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p/en/site/ is where I am currently up to (make sure to hard-refresh to get the latest CSS) 20:43:55 Title: The Invisible Internet Project - I2P (at vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p) 20:44:27 RN, your router probably found the update via HTTP first. 20:44:30 str4d: scalability is a problem with a non reachable torrent 20:44:37 there is no option 20:44:40 and currently ONLY dev builds gets a torrent 20:44:59 Check http://localhost:7657/debug - you should see a TORRENT checker there. 20:45:14 and no, 20,000 in one swarm is not well-tested within i2p. 20:46:14 str4d: and I do not see a torrent on 0.9.3-15 20:46:21 zzz, true, I'd forgotten that *derp* 20:46:32 str4d: Seeding: 0 / 9 peers 20:46:55 zzz, how does the update manager choose between two update options when they have the same priority? 20:46:58 [RegisteredUpdater org.klomp.snark.UpdateHandler for ROUTER_SIGNED TORRENT @pri 10] *oooüs* 20:47:08 Is it just whichever one is found first? 20:47:50 dont know 20:48:39 Looking at the paste above, I'm guessing that it's highest priority number wins rather than lowest. 20:50:15 Does anyone have anything else they want to add here? We can appraise the effects of the update at the next meeting. 20:51:21 site looks good here :) 20:51:28 * str4d has to leave in 25 mins so wants to move on 20:52:57 please continue str4d 20:53:21 (2) Website Revamp 20:53:22 I've tweaked the old themes so they at least refer to the right parts of the HTML, so the links in the footer can be used to try out the different CSS files available. 20:53:52 It gives an idea of how the new structure can still be differently layed out. 20:55:17 i2p: kytv@mail.i2p * rb47286b470722a6382a963092219407946bcc5b6 installer/ (5 files in 5 dirs): Add dummy placeholder files to empty eepsite directories 20:55:17 git and a few other vcses don't store empty directories....but now these directories 20:55:17 are no longer empty. 20:55:32 Starting build #46 for job i2p (previous build: SUCCESS) 20:59:21 Project i2p build #46:SUCCESS in 2 min 42 sec: http://kzzj7cu24fo6w7jsisgysh65lfyrkjaaaqsdn3hvlop6lp36vs2q.b32.i2p/job/i2p/46/ 20:59:24 How does it feel to people? 20:59:24 I've also made several backend changes that should hopefully make management of the site easier - e.g. incrementing router version only has to be done in two places now zzz 20:59:24 (Well, really only one, but I added another one so I could add Launchpad to the mirrors list) 21:01:40 Did anyone see my posts above? 21:03:08 yes. I think the site looks very good. 21:03:31 Yup 21:03:37 +1 on the design 21:03:37 laaaaag 21:04:45 a few broken links though bu tmaybe those are known 21:06:05 specifically http://vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p/en/site/volunteer/develop/developerskeys links to http://vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p/en/site/volunteer/develop/monotone which doesn't exist. 21:06:55 I still plan to open up the design to suggestion from the community (since there are still things about duck's design that bug me) but as a first iteration it works. 21:06:58 KillYourTV, as per ticket #807 the broken links are known (mostly on the earlier pages I migrated, since at the time I didn't know where the other pages were going to be). 21:06:58 Questions: 21:07:01 - Are the Blog and Meetings feeds alright as they are, or should they truncate their content (so readers have to go to the main site to view everything)? 21:07:05 http://trac.i2p2.i2p/ticket/807 - (accepted enhancement) - Revamp of website 21:07:36 - Does the Meetings feed need to be more obvious, or is the on the meetings index enough (it gets picked up by Firefox under Bookmarks -> Subscribe to This Page)? 21:08:39 KillYourTV, oh, that's a different bug - the page exists, but I shifted the monotonerc file it imports, so I need to fix that >< 21:09:07 But again, all links like that will be fixed. 21:09:21 - Does anyone have suggestions as to content changes that need to happen before the revamp goes live? 21:09:35 - Do we need RSS feeds as well as ATOM? 21:10:55 are all the pages staying at the same URLs? 21:10:58 - Should the "any" link in mirrors preferentially choose a mirror in a country determined from the viewer's language? 21:11:44 that's a very tricky one 21:12:30 what is the current behavior? 21:13:08 zzz, I'm reasonably happy with the urls as I have them now (but suggestions are welcome). 21:13:18 There are a handful of pages I have been unable to place though. 21:13:21 topiltzin, see http://vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p/en/feed/blog/atom and http://vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p/en/feed/meetings/atom for the current behaviour 21:13:27 Title: I2P Blog0.9.4 Release (at vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p) 21:14:02 str4d, I mean with existing site vs. new site 21:14:32 zzz, if you were asking if the pages are at the same urls as the current site: no. 21:14:35 The urls *actually make sense* now. 21:15:25 zzz, there are a few legacy helpers which redirect old urls to new ones, but that only works for some of the pages. 21:15:32 str4d, we need to talk about that then. We have a lot of SEO / link juice built up. There's also a couple under /static/ that have to stay the same 21:15:46 hosts.txt subscription, and backup news 21:15:50 (namely, meetings, status, and any pages placed into the legacy map) 21:16:04 we also have a lot of links back to the website in our console 21:16:04 zzz, the static ones are the same AFAICT 21:16:37 can you have a redirect for every old page? 21:17:46 LEGACY_MAP={ 21:17:52 'download': 'downloads_list' 21:17:52 } 21:17:52 ^-- we can add mappings there from the old site to the new. 21:17:52 zzz, it would have to be a manual redirect, but yes. 21:17:52 does this link juice build-up apply across all our domains? 21:17:55 (I'd want to shift the legacy-supporting code into a separate file though, because that would be looooooong) 21:17:58 And if I tell it to use 301 redirects, the client sees the redirect as permanent (or is that 302?) 21:18:33 could we perhaps try the new site on geti2p.net and keep the old one on i2p2.de or similar? 21:19:00 topiltzin, AFAICT geti2p.net is the same site (just a second domain) 21:19:07 (as in, same backend) 21:19:42 this is not a little thing. We've built up a lot of link reputation in the last 5 years and we can't afford to throw it all away. It's extremely important to get this right. 21:19:42 I'm trying to figure out some way to traffic-test it sooner rather than later 21:20:10 zzz, okay, I'll go through and add every page I've moved to the LEGACY_MAP 21:20:17 another thing - that both with and without .html suffix works. 21:21:03 zzz, already done (one-line addition to the legacy mapper) 21:21:03 Also, can people suggest new url locations for the following files? (I'm stumped) 21:21:03 i2ptunnel_services.html jbigi.html manualwrapper.html minwww.html ports.html ratestats.html 21:21:34 there's also the rel=canonical stuff 21:22:19 zzz, can you elaborate? 21:22:26 we actually spent a fair amount of time on SEO stuff trying to get our juice back after i2p.net went away 21:22:41 in _layout.html 21:23:20 you want to point back to the main site so mirrors don't suck away your reputation. 21:23:27 thats also why mirrors are always tagged nofollow 21:24:10 so you're not giving your rep away 21:27:32 would a mirror work for a traffic test? 21:28:25 Okay, well we just have to ensure that those are carried over to the new global/layout.html 21:30:02 (I'm guessing duck didn't do that) 21:32:53 (would love to read some chat logs about the SEO stuff) 21:34:37 str4d, if you haven't been thinking about SEO yet, time to dive in ASAP. Every word on the home page matters. 21:35:00 Both on the current home page and on the duck version, the words are chosen very carefully. 21:36:58 look for example at where we rank on google for 'garlic routing'. I wrote that page from scratch specifically to get page rank for that search term. 21:40:37 I've been more focused on getting the new site operational. But I haven't changed much text content. 21:41:36 I can go through and make sure the new layout dude doesn't lose any link stuff. Do you have suggestions for the SEO of the front page as it stands now though, zzz? 21:43:52 Since the text content of the migrated pages has not changed, they should be fine once the legacy redirects are in. 21:45:20 havent looked in months. whats the url again? 21:46:13 also str4d, we should standardize on '-' instead of '_' in urls. Right now it's a mix, but in the last 10 years the web has clearly standardized on '-'. Underscores look bad and it doesnt matter for SEO any more 21:46:29 It's above 21:46:32 Also linked on ticket #807 21:47:19 Yep, I noticed the mix. I'll fix that up. 21:47:22 ok I'll check the ticket. all the links above I see are to feeds and such 21:48:19 also good is to maintain short urls for the pages that get tweeted or referenced often - /download, /faq, etc. 21:48:22 The links above- use that b32 21:50:25 and if you or somebody else trusted wants to go further and claim our site on google webmaster tools, add a site map, etc., that would be great. I'm not at all claiming our SEO is great, just that we used to think about it at least a little. 21:52:00 I was going to add site map generation to the backend, so I'd be happy to do that. 21:52:18 does google webmaster tools report data back to google? 21:52:58 only if you put their js on your site 21:53:27 Short URLs - would the legacy URLs be enough? 21:54:10 topiltzin, only if we run Google Analytics 21:54:49 but will we get meaningful information without reporting anything back to google? or do we not care? do paranoid users care? etc. 21:55:38 sure, good questions. ofc we can also just awstats or similar across our logs looking at referers and search terms 21:55:45 doubt anybody's done that in years. 21:57:16 Well, the tools report back of course, but only because they are interfacing to Google data 21:57:26 Does the webmaster need to be non- anon though? 21:58:06 just need a gmail addy afaik 21:58:13 topiltzin, we will get Google search info, which in itself is useful. 21:58:39 Analytics is technically separate to the webmaster toolkit IIRC 21:58:46 anyway, all this is a sideshow for now 21:59:21 Yep. zzz, you reached the site yet? 21:59:44 nope, been talking to you :) 22:00:49 I like to pre-fetch eepsites while I chat :) 22:02:17 don't have much extra upstream bw for fetching atm 22:02:20 " Umm... the server encountered some sort of error. " 22:03:08 that's what I'm getting when I select the FAQ from the dropdown menu 22:03:31 str4d, how are you staying in sync with the old website? did you branch from it in mtn or are you doing it manually, or have deferred the whole painful issue? 22:03:34 Rn, odd... shouldn't do that. 22:04:00 zzz, branched in mtn and propping regularly. 22:04:23 I'm changing no content in the revamp so merges work alright. 22:04:58 There have been a few tricky ones, but mostly easy props. 22:10:49 what are you asking for comments on ? broken links? general organization? layout/colors/CSS? I have no idea where you're at. 22:11:54 dark theme dosn't look right 22:12:00 zzz, navigation layout, URL forms, general usability, and front page content 22:13:21 RN, neither of the old ones do. I've asked dr|z3d for some pointers, but none of the current themes will likely be the final one. 22:13:51 RN, re the error, I'll look at it in about 20 mins 22:14:07 so there won't be any theme selectors in the final version, hopefully? 22:14:58 multiple themes is a horrific waste of time 22:15:20 zzz, probably not, unless there is indecision over the final theme. They are there to help designers. 22:15:43 They can always be created by users. It isn't something the devs should worry about 22:16:20 IMO 22:16:27 I just put the links there to expose the functionality for now. 22:17:36 the thing that bugs me the most about the home page is the black bar with the links. That aren't really links since they only popup a menu, they don't go anywhere ifyou click on them 22:18:37 it's like it's the wrong color, and in the wrong place, and too small or something. It's not in the style of the rest of the page, and I'm wondering if all that should be below the green part 22:19:12 zzz, I haven't focused on color or style. 22:19:49 The decision to not link the menu openers came after usability discussions and feedback. 22:20:16 It was decided that linking some of them and not others would cause confusion. 22:20:43 The plan is to use CSS to make the distinction clearer. 22:21:35 cant put my finger on it but the top 3 sections (yellow, black, green) seems like one too many or in the wrong order or something 22:21:35 not just about color/style maybe? don't know. there's something unfinished or out-of-place about it 22:21:35 maybe some styling can bring it all together, maybe not. 22:21:42 The color and style of the navbar will be changed to integrate better, but I needed something functional. 22:22:00 I'd love to find someplace on some page to put a big "Celebrating 10 years 2003-2013" banner 22:22:50 (this is why I added the theme links, to show that thesaurus structure can be rendered differently) 22:23:24 whats a thesaurus structure? 22:23:31 havenc clicked on theme links yet 22:24:20 Argh, phone typing fail. should be "same" 22:25:06 and now I wish I hadn't 22:26:09 too bad dg seems to have gone up in smoke. All that youthful enthusiasm fizzled out so fast? 22:26:28 two meetings and done 22:26:47 yeah, half the old castle isn't being used properly because of the new structure. but I haven't had time to migrate them yet. 22:26:58 css* 22:27:36 It sounds like he's rather busy at present. 22:28:26 so that's my takeaway. the black menu bar seems to be the most problematic. Not that I have any suggestions about it. Just feels/looks not right. 22:30:12 I'm sure another dg will show up or the old one will return when the time is right :) 22:30:28 Yep. what about the layout of links within it? Sensical? 22:30:28 but in the meantime, we're still doing great and it's important to listen to non-youthful and non-enthusiastic points of view as well 22:31:10 (also, I'll try changing the black bar to use the color scheme from ducks example nav bar.) 22:31:37 just surprised to see dg go from 60 mph to zero in a couple days. 22:32:51 dunno if we want direct links to the jar, exe, etc on the home page. Seems like the text on the download page is important. 22:33:45 defnitely need a llnk to trac, looks like that got lost? 22:34:16 if you would go somewhere when you clicked on the word, that would be a big help too 22:34:26 Volunteer -> Develop -> Bug Tracker 22:34:54 hahgeez there's two levels? 22:35:32 there's no little arrows indicating another level 22:36:09 and do we really want two levels on the home page, or anywhere? might be more than topiltzin's grandma can handle 22:36:44 and we darn well better send grandma somewhere when she clicks on download 22:37:43 yeah lets make sure she can get i2p and worry about making her a developer later 22:38:15 heck, might be best to scrap the fancy dropdowns and just replace download-about-help-volunteer with four big-ass buttons 22:39:01 zzz, there will be. 22:39:23 if the big-ass buttons are in Pretty Colors grandma would love it 22:39:34 And it was topiltzin who suggested to move docs into the about menu, so there are techincally three levels 22:39:57