{% extends "_layout.html" %} {% block title %}I2P Development Meeting 146{% endblock %} {% block content %}

I2P dev meeting, September 06, 2005

13:04 < jrandom> 0) hi

13:04 < jrandom> 1) Net status

13:04 < jrandom> 2) Syndie status

13:04 < jrandom> 3) susidns

13:04 < jrandom> 4) ???

13:04 < jrandom> 0) hi

13:04 * jrandom waves

13:04 <+bar> salaam aleikum

13:04 < jrandom> status notes up @ http://dev.i2p.net/pipermail/i2p/2005-September/000888.html

13:04 <+Ragnarok> hi

13:04 * cervantes tips his hat

13:04 <+fox> * adamta waves back across the Irc2p/Freenode bridge

13:05 < jrandom> :) ok, movin' in to 1) net status

13:05 <@cervantes> *** Disconnected

13:05 < jrandom> things seem to be going reasonably well from what i can see

13:05 < jrandom> heh

13:06 * cervantes concurs...only one netsplit in a few days

13:06 < jrandom> i know we do still have some problems when one's net con is heavily congested (causing messages to back up and fail, resulting in more elGamal and higher CPU usage)

13:06 <@cervantes> and my irc connection uptime is as long as my routers'

13:06 <+Ragnarok> same as usual for me. Slow, but usable, with intermittent unreliability

13:07 < jrandom> nice, i have been seeing that too cervantes

13:07 < jrandom> Ragnarok: unreliability with eepsites, irc, i2pbt, i2phex, mail, all of the above? with 0.6.0.5 or earlier?

13:08 <+Ragnarok> mostly in the form of irc disconnects every few hours.

13:08 <+Ragnarok> don't use a whole lot else, so I don't have much more information

13:08 < jrandom> hmm, do you have the bw limiter set?

13:08 <+Ragnarok> yeah

13:08 < jrandom> (as a reminder, -1 now means 16KBps)

13:09 <+Ragnarok> it's set to more than the default

13:09 < jrandom> ok cool, is it hitting that limit at all, and/or is that limit appropriate for your real net capacity?

13:09 <+Ragnarok> the limit is well below my real capacity, since setting it high seems to kill my wireless router

13:10 < jrandom> heh ok

13:10 <+Ragnarok> but my router doesn't seem to hit the limit anyway

13:11 <+Ragnarok> I can try to stress test it a bit, and keep better track

13:11 < jrandom> does the peak bw usage hit it though (per oldstats.jsp)? i2p is pretty bursty, and congestion on a burst might cause an irc discon

13:11 < jrandom> cool, that'd be great. i can only locally test so many situations, so any reports are appreciated

13:11 <+Ragnarok> which number am I looking for. oldstats is pretty dense...

13:12 <+Ragnarok> s/./?/

13:12 < jrandom> heh, sorry - oldstats.jsp#bw.sendBps the 60s peak (the second number on the line)

13:14 <+Ragnarok> what are the units? The number seems highly improbable

13:14 < jrandom> KBps, sorry

13:14 < jrandom> (its improperly named)

13:15 < Pseudonym> bits or bytes?

13:15 < jrandom> bytes

13:15 <+Ragnarok> unfortuneately, it must be wrong then

13:15 <+Ragnarok> the peak number is a small fraction of the limit, and of the current usage of the router

13:15 < jrandom> hmm, its pretty specific, counting sizeof(messages received)

13:16 < jrandom> (though the bw limiter itself works at a lower level, counting sizeof(packets received or sent)

13:16 <+Ragnarok> how bad is it if I cut & paste the line? :)

13:16 < jrandom> might be safer to msg it to me

13:17 <+Ragnarok> wait, I was looking at the 60 m rate. It still looks low, but at least it's higher than the current usage.

13:17 <+Ragnarok> sorry

13:17 <+Ragnarok> I'll /msg you more info

13:17 <@cervantes> Ragnarok: we'd instantly be able to determin your name, address and credit details from the netDB

13:17 < jrandom> heh

13:18 < jrandom> cervantes: thats why the netDb bw publishes only the *current* rate, not the peak ;)

13:18 < jrandom> (but yeah, giving out one's bw usage can be dangerous to an adversary)

13:19 < jrandom> ok, anyone else have anything to bring up wrt net status?

13:21 < jrandom> if not, moving on to 2) syndie status

13:22 < jrandom> lots of syndie progress, as outlined in the email and on my blog. rather than repeating it here, anyone have anything to bring up on that front?

13:22 <@cervantes> Officiali2pApps++

13:23 <+fox> <adamta> I'm modifying the JSP files to use more structured/semantic markup so that it can be more flexibly styled with CSS.

13:23 <+fox> <adamta> I don't have anything to show yet, but I'll post on the mailing list when I have something ready.

13:23 <+Ragnarok> maybe a small description on what you think the common use case for syndie is might be nice. I'm still a little unsure as to what it is, aside from a blog CMS

13:23 < jrandom> cool adamta - be sure to work with the latest codebase, as I went through and css'ed everything last night

13:24 < jrandom> (at a rought level, that is)

13:24 <+fox> <adamta> jrandom: Oops... I'd been working on an earlier version.

13:24 <+fox> <adamta> I'll `cvs update` and see what's changed, then.

13:24 * Ragnarok , asking for user docs. Oh the hypocrisy

13:24 < jrandom> good call Ragnarok. the use case is essentially '$myI2P.getUseCases()'

13:25 < jrandom> safe syndication and publication of content, rather than using eepsites

13:25 < jrandom> (as eepsites don't allow safe syndication, require more skill for publication, and require high availability of the operating node)

13:25 <+Ragnarok> how is it syndicated, though?

13:26 < jrandom> a good intro to syndie's aims is in the post http://syndiemedia.i2p/index.jsp?blog=ovpBy2mpO1CQ7deYhQ1cDGAwI6pQzLbWOm1Sdd0W06c=&entry=1124496000001&images=false&expand=true

13:27 < jrandom> syndication, right now, is done through http with explicitly specified syndication peers (either apache archives, other syndie instances, or freesites with syndie archives)

13:27 * cervantes just pulled apart the syndie css... it's sufficiently classes to do a varied amount of styling, but the markup itself isn't good for working in new themes

13:27 <+Ragnarok> oh, nice. I don't think I've seen that

13:27 <@cervantes> *classes=classed

13:27 <@cervantes> adamta: I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with

13:28 < jrandom> cervantes: i'm no css wonk, so anyone inspired to improve upon it, restructure it, or revamp how the whole css/frontend works is very much appreciated :)

13:28 <@cervantes> just get rid of those damn tables :)

13:28 < jrandom> heh

13:30 <+fox> <adamta> cervantes+jrandom: Indeed. There's enough there for basic styling, like changing the colour scheme, but I'm trying to modify it to get rid of the tables and to provide enough semantic markup (nested <div>s for sections, header tags, and so forth, all with classes and IDs when it would be useful) so that a stylesheet can completely change the appearance to the user's liking.

13:30 <@cervantes> cool

13:30 < jrandom> kickass adamta!

13:31 * jrandom will not touch that side of things for a bit (i've got plenty to work on in the router :)

13:31 <@cervantes> on a semi related note the new routerconsole themes have been somewhat delayed by arcturus' *ahem* disappearence

13:31 < jrandom> heh d'oh

13:31 <@cervantes> I'm trying to pick up where he left off with some of the workflow tweaks

13:32 <@cervantes> but I don't have the JSP skills to do anything radical like fix the broken tunnel config screens

13:33 < jrandom> ah cool, any progress is good, and if you need help with anything in particular, i'm 'round

13:33 < jrandom> adamta: one thing to keep in mind is the multiple-style thing (using the author-selected but locally hosted style) ((check my recent blog posts for more info))

13:33 <@cervantes> having said that the new alternative theme is looking ok

13:33 < jrandom> nice

13:34 <+fox> <adamta> The new color scheme is definitely nicer, if that's what you're referring to (?).

13:35 <@cervantes> adamta: it would be cool if the author's can select a complete style from a set of templates for their particular blog

13:35 < jrandom> cervantes: do you think we should deploy those jsp/css changes arcturus bounced me before, or would you prefer to hold off until you've finished some more pieces of it?

13:36 <@cervantes> jrandom: I'm not sure what he gave you

13:36 <@cervantes> if you can sling them over to me I can compare...I have made additional markup changes since I last discussed things with him

13:37 < jrandom> cervantes: individual blog posts can now have per-blog style applied (causing e.g. class="s_detail_addressLink ss_minimal_detail_addressLink" to be used in the html, assuming the style specified is "minimal")

13:37 < jrandom> cool, i'll bounce 'em your way cervantes

13:37 <@cervantes> ta

13:38 < jrandom> cervantes: a per-blog theme is a bit tougher - the LJ folks had to deal with it too, and came up with the compromise saying the list containing multiple blogs uses the reader's style preferences, while the list containing just one blog's posts uses the author's style preferences

13:38 < jrandom> we could publish a 'DefaultStyle: minimal' in the blog's metadata to allow the later

13:39 <@cervantes> yeah that was what I was imagining

13:39 <+susi23> (readers preferences should always override others)

13:39 <+susi23> (but thats an opinion :)

13:39 < jrandom> right, when the reader has explicit preferences

13:39 <@cervantes> /ignore susi23

13:39 <@cervantes> sheet it didn't work

13:41 <@cervantes> if we make filter by blog more distinct form of navigation

13:42 <@cervantes> such as a side list

13:42 < jrandom> at the moment, the user's preferences are kind of integrated into the workflow, rather than off in a separate prefs page (e.g. a link to bookmark a blog, or ignore them, or hide/show images). perhaps when we have multiple local styles, it'd be good to have a 'view style' drop down at the top

13:42 <@cervantes> then it will make style changes more pallatable

13:42 < jrandom> hmm yeah ,interblog navigation is going to be interesting

13:43 < jrandom> so you like how it was originally, with that list of blogs on the left hand side, rather than the drop down?

13:43 < jrandom> http://syndiemedia.i2p/viewattachment.jsp?blog=ovpBy2mpO1CQ7deYhQ1cDGAwI6pQzLbWOm1Sdd0W06c=&entry=1124769600000&attachment=0

13:44 <@cervantes> <bluesky>well that could be a template preference perhaps?</bluesky>

13:44 < jrandom> hmm, i dont know if stylesheets can turn a list into a drop down, can it?

13:44 <@cervantes> navigation type: dropdown|sidelist|hierarchy

13:44 <@cervantes> no

13:45 < jrandom> ok, yeah, that can be done in jsp & user preference though, no problem

13:45 < jrandom> (hierarchy?)

13:45 <+susi23> (sure, you can give the select a rows parameter)

13:45 <@cervantes> but if you abstract the markup into templates then you can have multiple user preference layouts

13:45 < jrandom> ah, true, as a multivalued list

13:45 < jrandom> (rather than an html list of links)

13:46 <@cervantes> (I was blueskying though)

13:46 < jrandom> right right cervantes (though it'd be nice if we can do as much templating as possible through css, since thats easier to deploy themes for)

13:46 < jrandom> ((especially with the new docs/syndie_standard.css))

13:46 <@cervantes> you might want to save that until version 2 and concentrate on more important aspects

13:47 <+susi23> (you could put all three variants in the html source and the users decides which divs we want to hide)

13:47 <@cervantes> right, if adamta sorts out the markup then you can probably do quite dramatic variations

13:47 < jrandom> aye, but i'm open for ideas for the default. if there's a better way to nav, it'd be better to deploy that

13:47 < jrandom> good call susi23

13:47 <+susi23> (k, not very elegant way ;)

13:47 <@cervantes> as in http://www.csszengarden.copm

13:48 <@cervantes> * http://www.csszengarden.com

13:48 * jrandom is glad i implemented ArchiveIndex as a separate object from Archive, so all this stuff is essentially just churning through the archive.txt textfile :)

13:49 < jrandom> ok, anyone have any further questions/comments/concerns wrt syndie?

13:50 < jrandom> (one thing to note is that the new petname stuff has a one-click export to the user's userhosts.txt file, dumping any i2p addresses there [but it doesn't import yet])

13:50 <@cervantes> nice work

13:50 < jrandom> gracias cervantes

13:50 <@cervantes> you going to ever do anything on i2p core again? :)

13:50 < jrandom> heh

13:51 * jrandom has a pair of killer changes to the router coming up, giving us lots of capabilities

13:51 < jrandom> (but more on those when they're tested and ready for deployment)

13:51 <@cervantes> i2pponies.ar

13:51 <@cervantes> i2ponies.war

13:52 <@cervantes> hmm vnc refresh is slow tonight

13:52 <+susi23> (pony wars? poor ponies...)

13:52 < jrandom> heh

13:52 < jrandom> ok, moving on to 3) susidns

13:52 < jrandom> susi23: wanna give us a rundown?

13:52 <+susi23> well

13:53 <+susi23> there is not much to say... susidns is a very simple webapp giving you access to addressbook configuration and subscriptions files

13:53 <+susi23> and to your "addressbooks" namely hosts.txt, userhosts.txt and (if existing) your published addressbook

13:54 <+susi23> I added an introduction page and some explanations how addressbook works

13:54 <+susi23> (ok, how I think addressbok works ;)

13:54 < jrandom> w00t :)

13:54 <+bar> userhosts.txt?

13:54 <+susi23> as there've been user questions about this in the last weeks

13:54 <+Ragnarok> I'll send feedback, once I try it out :)

13:54 <@cervantes> cool, how ready is it?

13:54 <+susi23> sure

13:54 <+susi23> usable

13:55 < ardvark> i use addressbook, but have no userhosts.txt, or is userhosts.txt my personal/private eepsites?

13:55 < jrandom> ardvark: userhosts is for user specified custom overrides (it doesnt exist by default)

13:55 <+susi23> userhosts.txt is a 2nd hosts.txt file which is read by the NamingService

13:55 < ardvark> ok

13:55 <+Ragnarok> userhosts.txt is the one you can edit without fear of dataloss via race conditions :)

13:55 <+susi23> and yes people used this for private keys

13:56 <+susi23> (which is a bit dangerous now when you activate addressbook publication)

13:57 <+susi23> well, no magic here... thats all

13:57 <+Ragnarok> adding a privatehosts.txt or something, which is read by the NamingService but not addressbook would be trivial

13:57 <+susi23> true

13:57 <@cervantes> I would like to see that ;-)

13:58 * cervantes clutches his private keys ;-)

13:58 < jrandom> ooh, susidns intro page is nice :)

13:58 < jrandom> (cervantes/susi/ragnarok/et al: see the syndie pet name web interface too [you need to log in to see it])

13:58 <+susi23> as addressbooks publication is turned off by default there is no danger for normal people

13:58 < jrandom> right right

13:59 <+Ragnarok> I've asked this before, but is there anything I can do to make life easier for people writing addressbook frontends?

13:59 * cervantes has forgotten his login

13:59 < jrandom> cervantes: you can register again ;)

13:59 <+Ragnarok> so have I, probably

14:00 <@cervantes> wouldn't sushidns be a better name?

14:00 * cervantes ducks

14:00 <+susi23> ragnarok: how about a function to interupt the sleeping thread for immediate (user triggered) subscription update?

14:01 < jrandom> ooh, or a manual "fetch now" capabiliy

14:01 * susi23 slaps cervantes with a large trout.

14:01 <+susi23> yes, calling it dns is ridiculous here...but thats a historic name :)

14:01 <@cervantes> raw trout!

14:01 * cervantes grabs the soya sauce

14:01 <+susi23> (pervert!)

14:02 <+susi23> k, back to topic please ;)

14:02 <+Ragnarok> ok, I'll look into that

14:02 <+susi23> (don't drink at meetings!)

14:02 * jrandom hides my drink

14:03 * susi23 pings jrandom

14:03 < jrandom> ok cool, thanks susi, looks v.nice

14:03 < jrandom> ok, moving on to 4) ???

14:03 < jrandom> anyone have anything else they want to bring up for the meeting?

14:04 <@cervantes> if anyone has been experiencing any issues with irc2p please let the admins know

14:06 <@cervantes> #irc2p is the support channel

14:06 <@cervantes> or post to the forum

14:06 <@cervantes> jrandom: do you want a syndie forum btw? (or is that redundant)

14:07 <@cervantes> susi23: you're welcome to have one too, for you plethora of i2p apps ;-)

14:07 < jrandom> atm, i think we're ok without one, thanks though

14:07 < jrandom> the susiworld forum

14:09 < jrandom> ok, if there's nothing else

14:09 * jrandom winds up

14:09 * jrandom *baf*s the meeting closed

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